His view of Walker's politics Victor DeGrazia

Campaign manager tells why governor lost. Conflict with Daley began when his senators torpedoed some of Walkers appointments. Veto overrides in '74 brought total realization of impossibility of trying to get along with the mayor. Then 'we should have started organizing in every ward in Chicago. And we didn't'

THE CHIEF DEPUTY and foremost political adviser of Gov. Dan Walker throughout his term of office has been Victor DeGrazia. Walker and DeGrazia have been allied politically for 20 years; both were members of several "independent" political organizations in the 1950's. DeGrazia also worked on the famous "Walker Report, "an investigation of the disturbances at the 1968 Democratic National Convention which called the actions of the Chicago law enforcement authorities a "police not." DeGrazia served as Walker's campaign manager in 1972 and 1976.

With the exception of the governor himself, no other person in state government has exerted more power and influence than DeGrazia over the past four years. His allies think him brilliant; his opponents consider him brutal. Both sides agree he's blunt. Recently. DeGrazia sat with this reporter in his unpretentious Statehouse office down she hall from the governor and reflected politically on the Walker years. The following is an edited transcript of that interview.

Q: How do you rate the governor's years in office in political terms"? What were your political goals? Did you reach them"'

A: I don't think you ever reach your goals in government. I think if you take some of the major objectives of the Walker campaign, I would say that they have been realized in part and in the main. and in a sense they were important beginnings. Let's take the executive order on financial disclosure. I don't think any future governor can reverse that, If Dan Walker had not put in that executive order, future governors could have had less comprehensive disclosure. I think holding the line on taxes is an important contribution. There has been a lot of phony baloney about Dan Walker hong a big spender. He was not anywhere near the spender that [former Gov. Richard] Ogilvie was. Part of the problem is — and Walker realized this from the beginning — if you look at Ogilvie's budget, when he got the income tax money it had to be spent. That's how it is with government. If you have money, you have to spend it. That's one of the reasons Dan kept emphasizing, constantly, no tax increase.

Q: In political terms, one of Walker's objectives was to open up the Democratic party and increase participation. Was he successful in that?

A: Absolutely. Look downstate at the number of legislators and county officials who were elected. Counties like Winnebago, that used to be so solidly Republican a Democrat couldn't even squeak in. now elect a Democratic mayor of Rockford, elect Democratic county board members. These elected offices are the lifeblood of the party. The Cook County Democratic party would not be anything if they did not have the mayor, control of the county board, and control of county offices. The same thing is true downstate. I think the facts prove that since Walker has been governor, the number of Democratic officeholders has increased tremendously.

Q: If you had it to do over again, would you attempt to foster better relationships with some of these Democratic leaders and try to get along better with them? Obviously, the disputes with Chicago Mayor Richard Daley received the most attention. Would you try to get along better with him too?

A: In our view, it is Daley who doesn't want to get along with us or any body else who wants to lead — exert leadership in — the Democratic party. If you look at the Cook County Democratic organization there aren't too many close to Daley who would ever challenge him. Daley, the political boss, surrounds

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'Why did we lose the election and the primary? .... We should have organized Chicago from the very beginning when it became apparent that Daley was never going to accept Walker

himself with people who are not going to challenge him.

Q: Did you ever attempt to foster a good relationship with the other Democratic leaders?

A: Yeah. You know, I'll never forget [State Treasurer] Alan Dixon when we were meeting with him after the election. He said, you're not going to have troubles with the legislature because basically the legislators want to get along. We said that's great because that's the way we are. The trouble really began when, against all tradition, the Daley Democrats torpedoed some of the governor's appointees. Now this was done without advance warning. As a matter of fact, the opposite. We had weekly meetings with the leadership, and we reviewed the problems of the upcoming week and nobody said there would be problems with the confirmations, and all of a sudden down the tube go three people [Mary Lee Leahy, Nancy Philippi and Beverly Addante]. That was really a stupendous shock to us. To me particularly, because just prior to that, at a meeting of the cabinet, out of my vast experience in state government last time I served, I was telling how confirmation was just routine.

Q: What about the time you served under Gov. Otto Kerner? Can you describe some of the political differences in state government from then and now?

A: There's biennial budgets. The Budgetary Commission under Senator Peters and Paul Powell was powerful.* Peters and Powell had an enormous grip on it. Kerner was a go-along governor as

*Sen. Everett Peters (R., St. Joseph), served in the legislature 1935-71 and was chairman of the Budgetary Commission for 14 years. Rep. Paul Powell (D., Vienna), served in the legislature 1935- 65, then becoming secretary of state. Twice speaker of the House, Powell was an influential member of the commission for almost 20 years.

far as the legislature was concerned. He rarely did anything to offend them. And he rarely did anything to offend Daley .... Kerner was a master politician. People would come away shaking their-heads — people who wanted something from him — shaking their heads but liking him- Style is such an amazing thing. The first experience I had watching Jimmy Carter on television was at the convention when he had a news conference announcing the selection of Senator Mondale [as vice presidential candidate]. At. one point. Carter, in his soft southern accent, said, "I have instructed my staff," and it sounded like a bunch of good old boys got together and said, "Hey, why don't you do this. or why don't you do that." When Walker stands at a news conference and says, "I have instructed my staff." it sounds as if he has lined them up in the morning and checked their uniforms and given them commands, one, two, three. It's amazing. Both men, from what I have been able to perceive, are enormously alike, Enormously. If anything, Carter is tougher and more rigid than Walker.

Q: I agree with you about the similarities, yet Carter was enormously more successful than Walker. What is the reason for the difference?

A: I think part of it was the tone of the voice and how you say something and how people perceive it. It's like body motions. It's like the difference between [former New York Mayor John] Lindsay and [Vice President Nelson] Rockefeller. Rockefeller, whom I consider to be an enormously successful politician, talks with his hands, with his palms upright. When Lindsay talks, his palms are down. The difference is enormous because Lindsay sounds as if he is telling you to do something whereas Rocky has a sort of open hand, a sort of asking you to come along. Why did we lose "the election and the primary? I would say a blunder on Chicago in a sense that we did not organize Chicago. We should have organized Chicago from the very beginning when it became apparent that Daley was never going to accept Dan Walker. Somebody asked me once when I thought Daley decided he could not live with Walker, and I said the day Dan Walker won the primary.

Q: Was there a turning point in the relationship when it became impossible to get along'.?

A: I would say the total realization came in the second year. in the 1974 override session. That's where they did great violence to the budget, they overrode hundreds of millions of dollars. That was the obvious point right there. There was no room in Daley's mind for a Daley and a Walker. At that point. I knew we would have primary opposition At that point. I should have started organizing in every ward in the city of Chicago. And we didn't,

Q: What is your long-run strategy with Daley?' Will Walker try to outlast Daley whenever he dies or gives up the mayor's office. then the governor will be in a better position to deal with the other leaders in the Cook County organization?1 Has that always been the strategy to outlast Daley?

A: No, I don't think you can ever have that as a strategy, to outlast somebody. If there is a strategy it is that you constantly try to work with other political leaders, try to influence them, try to put together groups of leaders. Sure, everybody knows that the Democratic organization in Cook County is going to change when Daley steps down, Whether it will change immediately or dramatically, or whether it will take a number of years, we don't know. You know there is a lot of tension in the organization right now, It is not the model it appears to be,

Q: What about the future of the independent political movement?

A: I would like to get the independent movement defined. You know the Chicago media particularly used "liberal" and "independent" as if they are interchangeable words. They are not. There is a very strong independent movement in this state. I think it is stronger now than four years ago and think it will continue to get stronger. Now the independent liberal movement, which is centered primarily on the North Side along the lakefront and in the

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Q: You make the distinction between liberal independents and other independents. Did Walker raise the hopes of the liberal independents in his 1972 campaign and then destroy them by later posturing as a conservative?

A: Walker was never a liberal. He was supported by liberal organizations such as the I VI [Independent Voters of Illinois], but they supported his views about reforming the Democratic party and restoring honesty to government rather than his fiscal views, because his fiscal views were spelled out in the IVI questionnaire. Probably the major issue that caused the liberals trouble was the death penalty. Because Dan had taken a strong position against the death penalty and then as governor, by amendatory veto, supported at least a restrictive form of the death penalty. That represents a change in his thinking brought about by his responsibility not only to lead, but to represent people. I think a resounding number of people in Illinois believe that some form of death penalty is necessary.

Q: What does the future hold for you? Will you latch on to another candidate or do you expect to remain with Walker?

A: Dan and I, no matter what either of us do, will always, remain friends. I bought a house up near his. not for that reason, but we will always be close friends, In terms of latching on. that's wrong, but will I work --- be working --- for other candidates? I'm sure I will.

Q: You were quoted a few weeks before the primary that you thought Walker would be President someday, it was just a question of when. Do you still agree with that?

A: Yep. I just think he should be. He has the discipline and energy. 

DAN WALKER becomes former Gov. Walker on January 10. Will he begin campaigning for the next governor election? It is only two years from now.

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